Episode 540: Joe Nash on DevRel : Software program Engineering Radio

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Felienne 00:00:16 Hi there everybody, my title is Felienne Hermans for Software program Engineering Radio, and at present with me on the present we now have Joe Nash. Joe is a developer educator at Twillio the place he helps college students to be taught with TwillioQuest, Twillio’s academic recreation. Beforehand, he was a program supervisor for GitHub schooling and developer advocate at PayPal. Welcome to the present, Joe.

Joe Nash 00:00:37 Hello there. Thanks a lot for having me.

Felienne 00:00:39 The subject of at present’s present is developer relations, and that is after all a task out of your biography we all know that you’re aware of, however not everybody would possibly truly know what developer relation, what it even means. So, what does that imply? What relations do builders have with whom?

Joe Nash 00:00:58 Yeah, certain. So, I imply, it is a little bit of a sophisticated reply, which fairly one of the simplest ways to begin, however I assume most easily put developer relations is enterprise operate, which helps corporations attain builders — whether or not these builders be prospects of the corporate, say in a developer-facing product or stakeholders; for instance, when you’ve got a developer platform like Slack, for instance, the place they need builders to construct apps. So, in each of these instances, individuals who do the developer relations function try to assist that firm attain and construct relationships with builders.

Felienne 00:01:27 And I believe there are two phrases right here that may play a task. Generally folks name themselves developer advocate, but in addition, we hear the time period developer evangelist. Is that the identical factor?

Joe Nash 00:01:38 Sure. So, that is one other space the place the reply is sophisticated. Developer evangelist was sort of the unique title, and that meant somebody who would exit into software program communities on behalf of an organization and advocate to builders and discuss to builders and unfold the phrase of the product to builders. And over time there’s sort of been a pattern change to developer advocate and that’s largely actually in my opinion as a result of the phrase evangelist has some spiritual connotations that not usually are not essentially acceptable for each group. However there’s additionally sort of been — and Twillio is an instance of this — an concept that truly these are two completely different roles the place evangelists are extra about outward messaging and advocates extra about bringing builders’ considerations again into the corporate. So, some corporations do function evangelists and advocates as two separate roles. Different locations it’s simply sort of a pattern change the place they’ve needed to maintain up with the occasions and select a globally relevant phrase.

Felienne 00:02:32 So if we’re in a state of affairs the place we now have these two roles, is it an evangelist is extra pre-sales and possibly a developer advocate is extra serving to folks to truly use the product?

Joe Nash 00:02:42 Yeah, I’d say that’s fairly correct. Yeah. Evangelists are usually about consciousness. They are usually high of the funnel. So, serving to builders perceive that this firm exists, and it has developer merchandise, and what they’ll do with the instruments. After which advocates are fairly often very built-in into the product suggestions life cycle. So, they’ll be out with builders making certain that their suggestions will get included into future integrations of the product, ensuring the developer expertise is sweet. There’ll usually nonetheless be some — each roles can have an enormous schooling part. So, each roles will assist builders in implementing the corporate’s resolution. However sure, I believe that the place they play into the gross sales lifecycle is an excellent manner of trying on the distinction.

Felienne 00:03:20 So why does this function exist? What do corporations sometimes want developer advocates for?

Joe Nash 00:03:27 So largely the — I assume the meme, the favored conception of why developer relations exist is that builders are sometimes regarded as laborious to market to. I don’t essentially agree with this, personally, however that’s the in style conception. The thought is that in case you are advertising to technical folks the place ‘technical’ signifies that they’re into software program, they’re into software program growth, you want individuals who have some understanding of that area with a view to communicate their language with a view to talk successfully with them. And so, you find yourself with primarily technical advertising. And so, that’s sort of the place developer relations is available in. Over time, developer relations has taken on plenty of different roles, and also you sort of usually see it primarily performing because the glue for a company that should deal with builders the place developer relations will interface with each division that interfaces with these builders and act as sort of the technical spokesperson.

Joe Nash 00:04:19 So, developer relations could get entangled in advertising, they could get entangled in gross sales, they’ll get entangled in content material and in product, and the place they’re performing because the ‘developer’ throughout the firm. And so, it pops up in plenty of locations, plenty of completely different roles, and so the primary causes an organization will want developer relations is that if they’re pursuing builders as both a buyer or as a part of a platform play. So for those who’re promoting to builders, you want to have the ability to — usually promoting to builders or advertising to builders means empowering builders to construct on high of your APIs, or your software program, your SDKs. And so meaning technical content material. And equally, in case you are doing a platform play, you need builders to construct on high of your product, you want plenty of that you must encourage them to say that ‘hey, it is a place you possibly can construct your corporation. That is the place you possibly can construct your app on high of.’ And in order that additionally requires a developer within the seat.

Felienne 00:05:09 So the kind of corporations that can sometimes have such a task are corporations that permit builders to construct upon their platforms. So, they could have, as already mentioned, an API or an SDK. There’s a place for builders to work together with their tooling, and due to this fact, you wish to assist them in doing that successfully and with pleasure.

Joe Nash 00:05:29 That’s appropriate. Yeah, there may be some nuance there in that we’re more and more seeing corporations that focus on builders as a shopper even have developer relations. So, GitHub is sort of an fascinating instance of this. GitHub is a product, clearly, builders use as a product. We come and put our code on GitHub, and that’s not likely a platform play, proper? That’s us utilizing it as a shopper, however then additionally they have an API they usually even have issues GitHub actions and a option to construct apps on GitHub. And so, GitHub developer relations sort of performs between each the place they’re encouraging builders to focus on GitHub as a platform for their very own functions, however then additionally they’re simply evangelizing the usage of GitHub as a product with builders. So, you do sort of get each ends of that now. And there are sometimes a DevRel falls on the spectrum between are you a product or are you a platform, and what you want from a DevRel relies on the place on that spectrum you fall.

Felienne 00:06:20 Yeah, fascinating. So generally you would possibly primarily be wanting builders to make use of your instruments even when they won’t customise the instruments with APIs. One thing like GitHub or possibly additionally Slack could possibly be an instance of that or Discord the place you additionally need builders to be your prospects. So, you wish to make certain your product seems to be cool and has options that builders need, but in addition you wish to assist them in billing in your platform.

Joe Nash 00:06:46 Precisely. JetBrains is one other actually fascinating instance of that, truly.

Felienne 00:06:50 Let’s transfer on to what the job truly seems to be like. So, I believe a lot of the viewers would know if you wish to be a programmer, or if you wish to be an architect, these are the talents that you just might need. However how does that work for a developer relations particular person? What sort of expertise — are you want a programmer, are you want a salesman? How do you outline your self, and what are the talents that you’d want if some folks which might be listening would possibly think about turning into such a task? What are the talents you want for that?

Joe Nash 00:07:19 Positive. So, I believe it’s in all probability best to begin with the developer advocate, the developer evangelist function. That is the function I believe most individuals have skilled in DevRel. And whenever you’re taking a look at these roles, plenty of expertise — relying on the corporate — come into it, however usually mentioned there may be that side of communication, being on the market in developer communities; it’s an enormous outstanding a part of these roles. So, public talking will usually be a part of that capacity to not solely be assured and talk a message properly on stage however to have the ability to craft a story. So, to take your organization’s product and consider tales you possibly can inform round that. And that doesn’t all the time essentially must be product-focused. A number of developer advocates — for instance, I had a chat I used to do at PayPal, which was about some cool engineering that was occurring inside PayPal that was utterly your orthogonal to make use of of the product for a developer.

Joe Nash 00:08:04 But it surely was an fascinating story and confirmed that we have been doing a little actually cool technical stuff, and in order that’s fascinating to builders. So, the power to construct narratives and tells compelling tales is admittedly vital. Usually developer advocates will likely be concerned in content material creation of every kind. So, historically that’s been weblog posts and social media content material. And so once more, with the ability to inform wonderful tales in a written format is admittedly helpful in with the ability to make it entertaining. However the academic content material piece is essential for weblog work. And over the course of the pandemic video work has taken a extra vital place as particularly dwell streaming has taken on plenty of significance versus the place we used to do plenty of in particular person stuff. In order that’s develop advocacy. A number of different roles relying on the dimensions and class of develop relations division will fall into DevRel so, know you’ve learn out program administration, it’s the title I’ve had previously. There’s more and more developer centered packages that get run by DevRel. Some departments incorporate documentation and different technical schooling roles, however I believe these are in all probability extra acquainted to plenty of people. I believe the one that can in all probability be most novel is the developer advocate function. And so the power to notice, take your growth expertise and share these is primarily what you’re taking a look at.

Felienne 00:09:16 What does a job appear like day-to-day? It looks like it’s a really, very thrilling job the place you do many various issues: running a blog, going to conferences, doing dwell streams. How does that work? How do you arrange the work you do?

Joe Nash 00:09:30 There’s no avoiding it. It’s chaotic usually within the peak of my occasions and developer advocate, my day after day has been outlined by the convention seasons. So, you get very used to for instance, Octobers and Novembers are doomed. That’s when all the massive conferences are, you simply get used to residing out residing on a airplane. Once more, that’s modified in newer years. However yeah, it’s very pushed by the group and the group’s wants. I’d say it’s a really reactive function. You’ll usually be responding not solely to what your builders want and what the builders in your group want and what they’re doing with conferences and occasions, but in addition what’s popping out of your organization. So, developer advocates are very busy this time of 12 months as a result of plenty of huge developer going through corporations are inclined to do their huge product convention on this time, proper?

Joe Nash 00:10:12 We’ve obtained GitHub Universe, Twillio Sign, all these sorts of issues. And, and that’s when the massive bulletins come out. And in order that’s when the weblog posts and the talks must be executed. And so, it’s a very reactive function. One of many tensions I believe, and I think about we’ll speak about this, is maintaining your proficiency as a developer your self. That’s one thing that plenty of developer advocates fear about actually. As a result of there isn’t essentially all the time time to take a seat down and churn out plenty of code. You’ll usually be engaged on samples and demos, and bits and items for weblog posts. However if you find yourself on the content material manufacturing pipeline and touring a lot, it may be, will be laborious to search out that point. And in order that’s one thing that you just’ll usually attempt to make for time for relying on the season. So earlier within the 12 months, it’s simpler to make time to take a seat down and work on an SDK and that sort of stuff, proper? Yeah. It’s chaos.

Felienne 00:10:56 Yeah, that sounds actually difficult. And the way have you learnt, particularly given all these completely different duties you’ve got, how have you learnt for those who’re doing properly, proper? If you happen to’re a developer and no less than there’s so metrics we now have so many customers, or we now have a lot site visitors or so many request shut or options provides. When are you doing properly? How have you learnt that?

Joe Nash 00:11:16 That is, once more, one other query that DevRel likes to ask itself on a regular basis, which any dev folks listening to it will know is a specific sore level of thoughts. There’s plenty of methods of measuring DevRel, relying on what your product slash platform is, it may be just a little bit simpler. So, for those who’re a developer advocate, there are every kind of quote-unquote vainness metrics that you should utilize simply to get a tough concept of how issues are going day after day. How many individuals have been in my discuss, how’s my views on my YouTube video going? That sort of factor. However in the end, precise success goes to depend upon the instrumentation you’ve got across the precise product and the funnel for the product. If you happen to work on a, for those who’re a DevRel engaged on a product that has a free trial mechanism or a promo code-driven mechanism the place you can provide, the place you possibly can have attribution for a developer that indicators up attributable to one thing you’ve executed, that’s clearly a far much less traumatic state of affairs to be in.

Joe Nash 00:12:07 It’s a lot simpler to level to your outcomes. Sadly, that’s not the character for lots of merchandise. There’s some actually cool tooling out, and there’s some actually cool measurement on the market. I believe one I all the time quote is the Microsoft Azure crew have actually good monitoring on their documentation. And so, they really know at a really granular stage — or have identified previously, I don’t know if that is nonetheless true — have identified previously at a really granular stage, what number of signups to Microsoft Azure come from documentation written by their developer advocacy crew, proper? And so, they’ve that stage of element. And so yeah, the approaches fluctuate. One of many stuff you learn out my bio was the GitHub function and get scholar developer pack, that was sort of a dream function from a metric perspective as a result of we had a scholar centered product, it was a scholar low cost and that was the first quantity, proper? All the pieces we did funneled all the way down to that quantity. And so, what we have been all the time on the lookout for was, hey, right here’s the mechanism by which we moved that quantity ahead. And so, every thing comes all the way down to this north star metric. Discovering that north star metric the place you go is sort of the defining issue of a developer relations function internally, I’d say.

Felienne 00:13:07 Yeah, that was going to be my subsequent query, proper? However that is additionally a query that issues for builders. They’re additionally, you would possibly assume, are we counting the variety of customers, or are we counting the variety of customers that keep on with us for a couple of month? So, I perceive on the whole it’s actually laborious, however I do nonetheless wish to know from you, what’s the course of to outline the northern star? Is that this a factor you do, you do along with the board of the corporate, or with builders? How does that work, that technique of deciding this?

Joe Nash 00:13:37 Positive. Yeah. And it’s going to hopefully be a really collaborative course of in observe. It’s usually not, however once more, it comes all the way down to what’s the firm constructing and the way do builders issue into that gross sales cycle, proper? So, if you wish to speak about a platform firm — say you’re speaking a couple of Slack or a Discord, as we mentioned — the last word purpose there may be that builders construct an software on high of that platform. That’s a call that’s very pushed by the developer, proper? It may be an organization that’s constructing the applying, however the option to implement in opposition to Slack might be very pushed by a developer. And so, builders are crucial in that gross sales cycle. And so, in that case you would possibly discover that you may, that metrics variety of builders reached are barely extra impactful and highly effective as a result of the developer has an outsized influence on adoption in that case. In different instances, when you’ve got a extra enterprise-focused product, you would possibly discover that the developer truly has much less say within the adoption.

Joe Nash 00:14:35 So truly a very good instance, that is video video games. So, video video games actually technically intensive growth course of, however they’ve very lengthy growth cycles, and as soon as they’ve locked into expertise they’ll’t readily change that expertise. And there’s a time frame the place they want to decide on what they’re going to construct the subsequent recreation on. And as soon as that’s executed, it’s a brief time frame. As soon as that’s executed, that’s executed. It’s not so helpful to market to builders in video video games as a result of they don’t have plenty of affect on the expertise getting used. You’ll be able to’t, your window of alternative to get to a developer and affect them may be very, very small. And so, in that case reaching builders or variety of builders reached isn’t an excellent helpful metric, proper? So actually — and that is I believe the place plenty of corporations have their first hindrances with DevRel — is that they don’t usually ask or don’t usually analyze very intensely, like what’s the function builders truly play in a possible adoption or go or no go on our merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:15:25 Developer relation may be very fashionable. So, it’s very simple to say, hey, everybody has builders, everybody hires builders, however builders don’t have equal energy in each firm, proper? The net, I believe the online and APIs that business, that a part of tech has actually popularized developer relations as a result of constructing web sites, builders do have plenty of say in adoption simply usually talking, however that doesn’t essentially apply to in all places the place you may be taking a look at using developer relations. And so, in the case of truly understanding how can we outline success? Actually the query is what’s the worth of a person developer coming to your platform? After which you’ve got, whether or not success is extra builders or deeper relationships with builders all comes from that, proper? If it’s a gradual, if it’s excessive, if builders have plenty of energy in adoption, going for a lot of builders and simply getting the phrase out as large as doable is a reasonably viable technique. If that you must attain a high-level particular person within the firm you would possibly wish to set up shut relationships and work for extra CTOs or architects than particular person front-end devs. Proper? Does that make sense?

Felienne 00:16:27 Yeah. So, it’s very a lot tied additionally to what the mission of the corporate is, proper? As a result of certainly you would possibly entice many builders, oh, I make this very enjoyable balloon to Slack or one thing however is that going to result in a paying buyer, or are you simply spending vitality of the advocates on hobbyists which might be making enjoyable issues however usually are not essentially resulting in extra prospects? So, I think about that it’s additionally very, very tied to what your corporation mannequin is.

Joe Nash 00:16:54 Sure, precisely. Yeah. And I believe a very truly fascinating instance of that is Spotify, so Spotify have an API platform; you should utilize the Spotify API, you are able to do a bunch cool stuff with it, however what are the companies truly constructing on high of Spotify as — you understand, constructing their enterprise on high of Spotify, its issues built-in sensible audio system and dashboards for vehicles and in these industries I imply, to begin with, they’re adopting Spotify for causes which might be utterly orthoganal to the developer expertise. They need to combine Spotify regardless, proper? So, whether or not a developer likes the API or not is irrelevant. The authorized state of affairs, the authorized and copyright environment of integrating a music supplier into these programs once more, additionally removes plenty of energy from the developer making that alternative.

Joe Nash 00:17:45 After which {hardware} and automotive are each industries the place a developer doesn’t have plenty of decision-making energy. In order that’s an important one the place I believe a very fascinating instance of like Spotify investing in DevRel they usually have a public API and the DevRel people can go and get a bunch of builders constructing on it, however does it essentially allow extra folks to construct with Spotify, proper? Ordoes it affect the kind of corporations which might be constructing with Spotify? Most likely truly not. Nonetheless a very good factor for them to be doing. It’s nonetheless, DevRel can having a very good public going through API can do wonders for every kind of issues for a corporation, particularly hiring. If you’re seen to be a developer pleasant firm, it’s lots increased, lots simpler to rent builders. In order that’s by no means one other a part of it, however yeah, it’s a troublesome query.

Felienne 00:18:35 Yeah, that’s fascinating, that perspective of hiring, this may be one more reason, proper? Why corporations have developer relationships — not essentially to point out that is the way you construct on a platform, or that is how cool our platform is, however extra to point out we’re an organization that cares about builders and due to this fact come work for us, proper? Is that this additionally one thing that’s usually seen because the duty of DevRel, or is that this like, within the HR division and that is solely out of your scope sometimes?

Joe Nash 00:19:04 Yeah, once more, it will probably fluctuate. It’s sufficient of like overlap with expertise is one other factor that some DevRel groups do — and a few DevRel groups are constructed round this precept. So, I simply talked about Spotify there and their API; Spotify have a developer-facing product referred to as Backstage, which is an inner device that they constructed for their very own utilization after which they began evangelizing exterior in the same option to Fb and React, they usually’ve obtained a DevRel crew for Backstage. And that’s nothing to do with Spotify’s product. That’s purely, we’ve constructed a cool developer device; we predict it’s good, it’s good for the corporate, for builders to assume it’s good, so let’s assist advocate it. So, that’s a developer relations crew that has sort of been based with that concept that there’s, they’re in all probability largely a model positioning factor, proper?

Joe Nash 00:19:49 And you may arguably say the identical in some ways about any developer who works on one thing. Like React. React isn’t associated to Fb’s enterprise as a social media firm, proper? It doesn’t get extra folks to log into Fb and add images of their canine. However Fb wants plenty of builders. React may be very, highly regarded and has had a big impact on the developer ecosystem. So being a developer advocate engaged on React, you’re primarily engaged on Fb, the model. And so, you should have developer relations groups the place that’s the core premise, that’s what you’re doing. And it’s fairly clear from the skin whenever you go to work on a crew like that, that’s, oh, I’m not engaged on the product that pays the payments. I’m engaged on a product that helps us construct the corporate that pays the payments. Proper?

Felienne 00:20:38 Think about folks wish to turn into a developer relations particular person. How do you try this? And possibly we will begin along with your path. Did you go from being a programmer to being an advocate? How is your course of, and the way is the everyday course of in as far as you understand that?

Joe Nash 00:20:54 My path is admittedly bizarre and possibly not usually relevant. My path is through hackathons, which isn’t itself unusual. So people who aren’t conscious, hackathon is sort of a programming journey marathons. So sometimes, you’ll spend a number of days in a room with a few hundred different folks simply constructing cool stuff. There could also be prizes, there is probably not. There’s community-driven hackathons, company-driven hackathons. I used to be very concerned in scholar hackathons once I was in college, but in addition used to go to some skilled hackathons, and a type of was PayPal’s hackathon, which not exists, nevertheless it was referred to as Battle Hack. And Battle Hack was sort of a World Cup setup, in order that they’d maintain it in each metropolis after which they’d fly the winners out to their workplace in Silicon Valley the place you’d compete for some foolish prize cash.

Joe Nash 00:21:37 My crew gained in London and so we went to the finals. We have been one in every of two scholar groups there, after which we obtained completely demolished. We had no likelihood of profitable in any way. However after that I mentioned to the PayPal developer relations crew, hey, that is one of the best hackathon I’ve ever been to. I arrange hackathons myself as a scholar, how do I be a part of this crew? And so, they opened an internship place for me, and I joined as an intern. And yeah, then after I graduated and I went on to begin doing a PhD in primarily programming language design, as a result of I had this sense that being a developer was far tougher than it must be, and I needed to work on that. After which I used to be up there in distant Scotland engaged on this PhD and was sort of like, oh wait, I can receives a commission to assist builders as a substitute, I’m going to go be a part of PayPal full time.

Joe Nash 00:22:30 And so, my path was very, very bizarre. Sure. So not lots that’s relevant there, however usually talking, I’d say the commonalities there that I’d actually advocate is interfacing with developer communities. So, I believe one in every of, and I don’t essentially assume it is a broadly held perception, however I believe one of the vital issues about developer relations and why it exists, and why developer communities look they do, and why we go to all these conferences and this sort of factor, is in the end that software program engineering is a career with an uncommon diploma of lifelong studying, proper? Due to the tempo of expertise, software program engineers must replace their expertise and be taught new expertise at a tempo that’s in all probability not seen essentially in different industries and different roles. And we flip to group to assist us try this.

Joe Nash 00:23:23 The place else are you going to find out about all this new stuff? Effectively, we’ve obtained the consultants talking on the onstage at a convention, proper? You don’t get, you don’t essentially get hackathons for carpenters with tons of of individuals sitting in a room for twenty-four hours to learn to use a brand new chisel, proper? That’s one thing that’s pretty distinctive to software program engineering. And in the end that’s sort of the, it’s a really distinctive half about being a software program engineer. And taking part in these communities I believe is admittedly vital for our development as software program engineers. But in addition supplies a very nice launching off level for a developer relations particular person. Go discover your native meetup. Go discover, go tune right into a stream for a product you’re curious about, discover an Open-Supply developer and skim that weblog. Get to know builders round you, be taught new expertise and work out how one can contribute.

Joe Nash 00:24:10 And I believe that’s in all probability one of the best path into developer relations. A number of corporations hiring for early-stage developer advocates will likely be curious about your technical proficiency. And your capacity to speak that expertise and what different, what writing and what talking you’ve already executed, however in the end they’re on the lookout for individuals who perceive that expertise and perceive the group round that expertise who’s assured in speaking to others in that group and distributing a message by way of that group. So simply go hang around with different devs in your space is the best manner.

Felienne 00:24:45 Good. That’s nice recommendation for those that wish to possibly discover this path. However you hinted at this at first of the episode already, like what’s the function of programming? and the way do you retain your talent in programming up-to-date? So let’s first begin with this primary query: How vital a part of your job is programming? Do you ever nonetheless program? Do you construct prototypes? Do you truly develop the merchandise that you just work on?

Joe Nash 00:25:09 Yeah, so once more, it will fluctuate tremendous broadly relying on the skew of the DevRel crew, however usually talking for a developer advocate, developer evangelist, being technically proficient might be pretty vital as a result of it’s going to drive plenty of the content material. Some developer advocates will write extra code as a part of their outreach efforts than others. So, some might need dwell coding or demo-driven content material or talks. Some could get instantly concerned in issues like the upkeep of SDKs or documentation. However there are undoubtedly roles inside developer relations departments to swimsuit sort of all ranges of technical proficiency, I’d say. So, as plenty of developer relations groups are increasingly more encompassing issues documentation and developer expertise. So, there’s numerous DevRel groups the place it’s truly the developer relations crew that owns the SDKs or the developer-facing elements of the product as merchandise. They usually preserve these as merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:26:16 And so there will likely be engineers who’re centered on engineering inside developer relations, they usually’ll get to expertise a few of what makes developer relations distinctive by way of the positioning to the shopper and being in contact with builders and incorporating developer suggestions extra instantly, however they’re nonetheless doing engineering. So usually I’d say understanding how a lot a task requires, a task will mean you can code or not mean you can code goes to come back all the way down to the job itemizing and asking some prudent questions within the interview course of. I’d say developer relations, if yow will discover a task that’s on — in case you are eager to code extra, discovering a task the place the developer relations crew is concerned within the growth of SDKs or client- or developer-facing merchandise goes to be actually vital. However there’s additionally plenty of enjoyable and pleasure in engaged on demos and stuff. I believe that’s, I undoubtedly, I mentioned it’s very uncommon that you just’ll get to actually plow into some scaled software stage code, however with the ability to simply work on enjoyable merchandise and churn them out and discover narratives to — to search out inspiring issues to construct in your firm’s merchandise may be very enjoyable.

Felienne 00:27:30 And that does result in the query, after all, of find out how to maintain your expertise up to date as a result of your buyer in the end is also a programmer. So, you need to perceive what are the challenges of programmers at present, each on the whole in working with programming programs, but in addition particularly within the device that you just wish to market to builders. How do you retain that talent up-to-date? Particularly, you’re already referring to our area being a area through which there’s plenty of studying occurring. How do you handle that?

Joe Nash 00:27:58 Yeah, I believe it’s very simple to turn into a T-shaped particular person in DevRel. So, since you’re all the time at these group occasions, you’re all the time experimenting with new issues to construct content material. It’s very simple to get very shallow expertise of plenty of issues and to not essentially have the depth to go assist an implementation at scale in an organization. So, I believe that’s the bit that plenty of DevRel people wrestle with. I believe one of the simplest ways of coping with that for lots of parents is — properly, I say “cope with that.” I imply, a part of it you possibly can settle for that you just’re simply not, that’s not your function; that there’s some extent the place you hand that relationship off to an architect or gross sales engineer throughout the group.

Joe Nash 00:28:43 However there are different methods the place people have interaction in open supply, or they’ve their pet tasks. For instance, in my present function, my function is primarily instructing new college students about Twillio. And meaning plenty of doing the fundamentals. I train them what relaxation APIs are and or all this sort of stuff. And I actually be taught lots myself there, however I don’t get to go tremendous in-depth. So I even have my pet product inside our — properly, not ‘product,’ my pet undertaking — which began as a demo however is now beginning to get fairly huge, and I maintain including to it and it’s rising in technical complexity, which I just do to ensure that I do nonetheless know the way to do that stuff, proper? And I believe that’s the way in which plenty of issues go. You’ll usually discover truly, like Brian Douglas at GitHub is an efficient instance of this, the place he’s a developer advocate, however he’s constructed an unbelievable facet undertaking round serving to folks get into open supply. However that itself is an app that he’s constructing that makes use of plenty of the applied sciences he’s advocating, and has plenty of customers. And so, he’s attending to it’s serving his advocacy wants whereas additionally giving him an avenue to construct expertise.

Felienne 00:29:49 Yeah. So, the tip possibly there may be to have some form of pet undertaking, huge or small, the place you possibly can nonetheless proceed to be a developer form of on the facet, in all probability not on the primary undertaking, so you possibly can maintain your talent set up-to-date.

Joe Nash 00:30:03 Yeah, that and I’d say in case you are involved about not writing sufficient code, control what the overlap between the DevRel crew and product is. You wish to search for groups which might be concerned in SDK growth. And in the end, in case you are tremendous involved about not writing sufficient code, it’s doable which have developer advocate isn’t a task you’ll take pleasure in.

Felienne 00:30:24 Yeah. So, what you’re saying is that programming is barely a small a part of the job, and it may be laborious to even maintain sufficient talent to correctly do your job, not to mention maintain your programming expertise alive for if you wish to return, if that’s the place you’re coming from to programming.

Joe Nash 00:30:39 I believe I’d say it’s an excellent job for individuals who take pleasure in coding however who wouldn’t take pleasure in coding nine-to-five full time.

Felienne 00:30:49 Yeah, that is sensible. Let’s transfer on to the subsequent subject that we wish to speak about. We talked about programming, we talked concerning the expertise that you’ve as a developer advocate, however what about content material growth? You talked about that early within the episode, I’d write blogs and movies and talks. How a lot of the job is that this content material creation? And likewise there, how have you learnt you’re heading in the right direction? Is there numerous weblog posts you need to write or numerous followers you need to purchase on Twitter? How does that a part of the job appear like?

Joe Nash 00:31:22 Positive. And once more, sorry to maintain saying it relies upon, nevertheless it does rely.

Felienne 00:31:25 We perceive, we will hear some examples of what it would appear like?

Joe Nash 00:31:29 So for a developer advocate it’s going to rely, it’s going to be a reasonably large a part of the function. So, that outreach-driven facet of develop relations content material as mentioned is a really efficient tactic to succeed in builders. Builders must consistently be trying stuff up. They should consistently be refreshing their expertise. So, creating content material and getting content material within the outstanding locations, being seen on Slack Overflow, on Hacker Information, on dev.to, these sort of issues, is a superb tactic. Weblog posts additionally function actually helpful entry level to a extra technical documentation. So, it’s usually lots simpler to search out blogs simply attributable to nature of search engine optimization than it’s to search out exact technical documentation. And so, having people engaged on weblog posts can actually assist builders within the lifecycle of utilizing your merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:32:27 So it does are inclined to take up quite a bit. The place you will notice it having a extra outstanding function will certainly be in platform corporations the place they’re making an attempt to serve large swathes of the developer ecosystems. Once more, Twillio’s an fascinating instance the place any firm can use Twillio, your tech stack doesn’t actually matter. We’re a REST API, we now have wrappers for every kind of languages. And so you find yourself with plenty of construct X with Y, proper? The right way to use Twillio for those who’re a Ruby on Rails app, and find out how to use this product with this language. And so these sort of corporations the place you’ve got, you possibly can have that X with Y formulation, you’ll have plenty of, in all probability plenty of weblog content material being made.

Joe Nash 00:33:17 When it comes to success and measuring that success, once more there’s the usual measures: hey, is that this weblog publish being seen? Is that this weblog publish showing in locations? Is it being profitable in ranked feeds? But it surely’s laborious to translate vainness metrics into precise enterprise worth except you’ve got an attribution mechanism. So, do you’ve got a manner of — like, do you’ve got a free trial or a credit-based system the place you possibly can say, hey, we all know that some builders signed as much as us for the primary time due to this weblog publish. Or can we see, hey, this weblog publish is speaking a couple of explicit demo software, and we will see {that a} bunch of builders are utilizing that demo software, proper? So, you really want to truly have a mechanism of on the lookout for precise developer exercise, precise have interaction builders, builders truly constructing with the product builders, hitting your API endpoint, builders integrating the product. And that must be fairly a holistic a part of the content material. You’ll be able to’t simply, if you wish to see precise product utilization, it’s laborious to simply sort of write a high-level weblog after which throw in on the finish and right here’s a demo, you possibly can test tat out for those who needed to. The demo must be helpful, must be one thing that they’d truly use experimenting with the product, must be on the essential path.

Felienne 00:34:37 After which the subsequent query could be, how have you learnt this stuff? How have you learnt what the essential path is? Do you’ve got some form of group of person builders round you that offer you suggestions? I do know generally these weblog posts have this little thumbs up, thumb down, was this content material useful to you? How do you even know for those who’re on the proper path? I imply, fairly often I search for tutorials and I’m like none of that is what would assist me to get began. However that is actually laborious to know since you’re such an professional of your individual merchandise, writing stuff for folks that aren’t in any respect educated in something. How do you assume that?

Joe Nash 00:35:14 Sure, I believe this is without doubt one of the, I assume one of many explanation why develop relations exists as its sort of personal factor somewhat than simply being a technical author in advertising, proper? It’s that embedding of an individual who’s liable for that content material within the developer group at giant. You could have the developer group who’s conscious of you, who’s conscious of your work, that you may go and say, hey, is this handy? Is that this what you want? That I believe is the best and greatest manner to try this. I do assume that developer relations people don’t essentially give attention to the academic outcomes as a lot — or don’t think about the academic outcomes as vital to the success of the function as they need to do. That’s my private’s, my private soapbox, which I’m going to DevRelCon with frequently and is why I work on issues on papers we love.

Joe Nash 00:36:11 So I do assume that that may generally be uncared for, however on the whole, being in dialog with the developer group is a core operate of the function. And so, for those who, if a developer relations particular person is writing content material with out suggestions from the group, some a part of the cycle isn’t working as meant there. So, I undoubtedly assume that’s, whether or not you name it a spotlight group or whether or not it’s only a group of parents you belief on Twitter who occur to go to the identical conferences as you, that group, that enter does must exist for the function to operate.

Felienne 00:36:49 And possibly that very a lot relies upon as you’re saying, you’ve mentioned a bunch of occasions, proper? It relies upon. It relies on the kind of firm or merchandise, whether or not certainly that could be a focus group or folks that you just hang around with naturally or that you just share in Discord with, proper?

Joe Nash 00:37:02 Yeah. So, the extra enterprise-focused issues, for instance, can have buyer advisory boards and they’ll have extra deliberately structured focus group-like setups. Once more, open supply has that as properly. Open supply you’ll usually have like a council, for lack of a greater phrase, bigger customers of the open-source undertaking to, when an organization has an open supply undertaking that they use, that they preserve, they are going to usually have — not saying for those who’re an open supply maintainer, you’re not operating your individual council, the folks use your product — however for those who’re an organization utilizing open supply, you’ll usually have an open-source guiding steering physique, who can also enter as properly.

Felienne 00:37:44 Let’s transfer on to the general public talking a part of the job, proper? So that could be a completely different type of content material creation, but in addition its personal factor. How do you go about discovering conferences? Do you, like common folks, do you undergo a name for papers or periods, or is there a distinct course of for those who’re a developer advocate that you just use to get your self or your merchandise into conferences?

Joe Nash 00:38:09 So, how do you discover conferences is certainly one thing that’s modified over time. Like, the halcyon days of Lanyard, which have been actually in all probability one of the best time for locating conferences. There are every kind of aggregators. Usually and once more, each developer relations particular person has their sort of pet conferences that they know from their group. Usually folks get into DevRel by way of being seen locally and that will likely be by way of these occasions. After which there is part of the cycle the place it’s, okay it’s time to go do my CFPs for the 12 months. I’m going to go discover conferences which might be addressing these themes, these subjects, and also you undergo them. The precise technique for submitting talks. plenty of folks go about it in several methods. So, for instance, to place it bluntly, submitting to CFPs is a numbers recreation, proper?

Joe Nash 00:38:52 CFP, so requires papers, the way in which that conferences take discuss submissions and the way in which that they settle for them, these processes will be pushed in another way in plenty of alternative ways. However there’s essentially going to be somebody reviewing them. You’re going to be up in opposition to different actually gifted audio system and there’s a lot content material on the market and so many conferences on the market. So usually, to just remember to can keep busy all year long, you’re going to be submitting to plenty of them, and also you’re going to be taking a look at in all probability getting accepted to lots fewer than you undergo. So, folks can strategy that in several methods. I believe this is without doubt one of the earliest factors of stress or frustration or burnout that developer relations folks hit the place they take a look at a convention they usually craft of a bespoke discuss for that convention, they usually do these 30 occasions after which 10% get accepted.

Joe Nash 00:39:43 And that’s very unhappy and traumatic, and also you’ve put plenty of work in. So, I believe what tends to occur is folks will sort of work on their talks for the 12 months to a few talks for the 12 months. They’ll discover acceptable boards for these talks, they usually’ll submit them, they usually’ll see what occurs. The way you submit as a developer advocate, and what function the product has in that’s, once more, all the time a stress level. We’re embedded in our communities, we’re a part of these communities, we wish our content material we do to be priceless. We don’t simply wish to go do advertisements in all places, however payments must be paid. So, understanding how one can symbolize your organization in a manner that’s helpful for builders is all the time tough. A number of conferences can have sponsored tracks and infrequently that’s simply one of the best factor to do, proper?

Joe Nash 00:40:21 If that you must talk firm message, that you must do the product demo, and there’s a manner the place you possibly can clearly say ‘it is a product demo.’ Nobody is being tricked into attending this. Everybody is aware of what they’re getting once they come right here. In the event that they’re , they’ll come right here, however they know we’ve paid for this slot. That is going to be concerning the firm, that’s nice. If you happen to’re a developer advocate who works on a product that has fascinating parallel issues to speak about. So, you get to speak about your merchandise, your organization’s expertise, and the way they construct the issues they do, and it’s not identical to, use our product, that’s additionally actually nice. Effectively generally you possibly can simply be actually fortunate, and you’re employed on a product that’s simply fascinating to builders no matter whether or not it’s a demo, proper?

Joe Nash 00:40:56 Like Kubernetes and React are good examples the place you possibly can simply go speak about find out how to do one thing in Kubernetes, and for those who occur to work for somebody who sells Kubernetes, okay that’s tremendous, you are able to do that discuss, proper? I believe the important thing to submitting talks is ensure you’re truly contributing worth. Be certain that it’s a scalable course of as a result of that you must be doing it lots, and just remember to usually are not going to be shocking the attendees on the convention that they’re anticipating to see what they’re going to see, and that they’re not going to assume there’s been a rug pull with the content material they’ve seen and what you’ve truly offered.

Felienne 00:41:28 Yeah, not I can really feel so them they unintentionally run into an advert, oh proper, this isn’t I’m not studying simply I’m being bought one thing.

Joe Nash 00:41:36 Yeah completely. And that’s a very laborious line to stroll.

Felienne 00:41:39 Yeah, after all.

Joe Nash 00:41:40 And a few people do it higher than others.

Felienne 00:41:41 And I believe that is even true for builders speaking about merchandise in the event that they’re not developer relations individuals, proper? Generally folks get actually enthusiastic about, look this cool factor I constructed, then it additionally would possibly sound like an advert though they’re not actually promoting one thing. It’s like, oh I constructed this platform and properly …

Joe Nash 00:41:57 If it’s a expertise they’re utilizing that they actually like, it may be very easy to unintentionally derail your convention discuss into simply sort of promoting a expertise that, like, whether or not it’s acceptable for another person it’s going to rely. And it’s not likely the helpful a part of the discuss, however yeah.

Felienne 00:42:12 Yeah. So, after which that course of does to me sound lots like different folks which might be submitting convention talks, proper? It’s a must to develop it just a little bit. Sure, it’ll be a bit too unhappy if it’s rejected. So, it doesn’t sound too completely different from — we now have had different episodes that we’ll hyperlink to about public talking and find out how to get into public talking extra on the whole. And that appears to speak a couple of fairly related course of. Thus far, we’ve very a lot talked concerning the exterior, the outgoing a part of being a developer relationships particular person, however what concerning the inward half, proper? Throughout the firm, I think about you’ve got interactions with everybody, with builders within the firm, with advertising, with gross sales, with HR possibly even for those who’re additionally doing this hiring-facing a part of the job. What does that search for you, and what does that appear like on the whole, the kind of collaborations you’ve got inside your individual firm?

Joe Nash 00:43:04 Positive. So yeah, in a great state of affairs, there’ll be plenty of these overlaps. So, these overlaps have a tendency to come back into play when you’ve got a enterprise operate within the firm that must be in contact with builders indirectly. It’s actually helpful to have a developer relations particular person within the room as a result of that developer relations particular person goes to be a consultant of the builders. They’re in these communities, they know what they need, they know the way they really feel concerning the firm, and they’re a very good vibe-check and steering physique. In order that performs out in several methods in several corporations, and in some corporations just some departments overlap, some gained’t. The largest manner you’ll see this play out for those who’re making an attempt to get into DevRel is whenever you see what’s the reporting construction for developer relations?

Joe Nash 00:43:43 Is it a standalone division? Very not often. It is going to usually report into advertising or into engineering, and the place it sits within the firm can inform you numerous about these overlaps. The most typical overlaps are undoubtedly advertising. Advertising and marketing might be, Advertising and marketing and Engineering are essentially the most important ones. Advertising and marketing will likely be as a result of, as we’ve spoken about lots with a few of the most outstanding roles in developer relations, there’s plenty of outward-facing outreach and consciousness constructing and you’ve got a task within the funnel. Engineering will come round from the opposite finish of the suggestions loop. So, developer relations can have an overlap with engineering as a result of they’re simply getting plenty of suggestions instantly from builders. They’re speaking to the folks utilizing the product. And so, it’s vital to have a manner that that makes it into engineering.

Joe Nash 00:44:26 Gross sales will usually be concerned for a really related cause. I’ve had roles, significantly at GitHub, the place I obtained concerned within the gross sales cycle simply because I occurred to be a technical public-facing particular person within the area, proper? So, I very often ended up speaking to, oh properly I used to be significantly centered on academic use instances, and I used to be centered on college students, however as a result of I knew the academic use case, I’d get introduced in to speak to a college that needed to purchase GitHub enterprise, proper? And that sort of factor. And in order that’s additionally pretty widespread. The opposite, I believe as we’ve spoken just a little bit about expertise as properly, that can usually come into play simply because once more, develop errelations persons are locally in order that they know that persons are on the lookout for jobs; they’re going to locations the place persons are on the lookout for jobs.

Joe Nash 00:45:07 Individuals search for jobs at these occasions. And so, when you’ve got jobs, if your organization’s hiring jobs and also you take pleasure in the place you’re employed, it’s all the time very good to have the ability to say, hey, you’ve simply watched me do a chat. If you happen to appreciated this discuss, come work with us. Proper? It’s very simple to try this. I believe the place it will probably get most tough is with possession and attribution although, since you overlap with so many departments, you find yourself having a stake in plenty of issues, however although it may be troublesome to combine that overlap into your individual measures for fulfillment or how you’re evaluated, proper? So, if I’m evaluated on variety of builders that signal as much as the platform, my relationship with expertise in all probability isn’t serving to that, proper? So, something I do for expertise isn’t essentially serving to, or if I spend plenty of time supporting a person buyer that’s not essentially contributing to the numbers. So, I believe that is the place the overlap, the place there may be some stress for DevRel in constructing relationships. A number of departments is, they usually are a service supplier internally, they supply one thing plenty of departments need, nevertheless it’s laborious to quantify that worth with all these completely different — you would possibly get thanked, you would possibly get acknowledged for these departments, however simply plenty of little tidbits right here and there doesn’t essentially make a cohesive inner narrative.

Felienne 00:46:22 Yeah. So everybody would possibly such as you as an worker since you’re serving to everybody, proper? However that may not be an efficient one.

Joe Nash 00:46:28 Impact of that.

Felienne 00:46:29 Yeah,

Joe Nash 00:46:30 Yeah, precisely.

Felienne 00:46:31 So we talked about, gross sales and advertising, however you additionally briefly talked about engineering. And I wish to go just a little bit deeper there as a result of in a way possibly you’re additionally generally the primary buyer of some merchandise that your organization is constructing, proper? In the event that they construct an API, possibly you’re the first one to attempt the API within the technique of working in opposition to it, making a weblog publish about utilizing the API. That’s, possibly you’re there as the primary buyer, possibly additionally fixing bugs. What sometimes is the connection that each one of you’ve got inside engineering in corporations or inside programming or builders?

Joe Nash 00:47:07 So, what you simply described could be the best state of affairs. I’ll inform you that doesn’t usually play out and that’s largely simply because the strain to ship. So, we spoke about more and more developer-facing corporations wish to do the massive splashy launch on the annual convention, and in these instances, issues are all the time in opposition to the deadline. The convention date is the goal. And so, there’s usually not as lengthy an inner interval to play with issues as you’ll hope, or as a developer relations particular person wants. However in a great world, that’s the state of affairs. If developer relations will get concerned within the content material for a product launch, and that is truly, I’d truly say that is in all probability extra an overlap with product advertising than is with engineering. As a result of that can often be how that relationship occurs, proper?

Joe Nash 00:47:49 So for the weblog publish to finish up being written by developer relations, the pre-launch weblog publish or the pre-launch demos to be written by developer relations, they’re in all probability being concerned in a product advertising effort, proper? However yeah, having that avenue into product managers and with the ability to say, hey, I performed with the pre-release model, right here’s the friction I had. It’s very priceless. I believe, these days particularly, and I do assume corporations GitHub have sort of made this commonplace. These days, you’ll usually have protracted public alphas that cope with that half, the inner pre-release cycle of it. So usually web site will go dwell within the public alpha and developer expertise points will get ironed out then and develop relations folks will likely be crucial in that cycle. As a result of once more, they’re an avenue for suggestions. They’ll in all probability be selling the alpha; they’ll be speaking with people through the alpha. However by way of being the primary buyer, I believe that’s comparatively unusual for the explanations I discussed.

Felienne 00:48:43 Ah, that could be a pity as a result of yeah, as you have been saying, that may be a pleasant trajectory the place first you take a look at it form of internally and possibly a few of the fixes you possibly can even make your self, whereas common prospects exterior of the corporate after all it could be tougher for them to iron out little points in an alpha.

Joe Nash 00:48:58 Yeah. It usually comes — and once more, somebody will hear this and say that they’re opposite to the purpose, and that they’re the primary buyer — however I believe the engineering collaborations have a tendency to come back after first publicity to the general public. It’ll be a developer has gotten maintain of the API and has suggestions and that can get again in to engineering through a developer advocate. That can usually be the connection with engineering. It’ll be the opposite finish of the suggestions cycle, and it’ll be the individuals who the primary prospects come to somewhat than be within the first prospects themselves.

Felienne 00:49:29 Yeah, that makes whole sense. Suppose folks which might be listening are curious about exploring such a profession. What are a few of the sources, I assume if you wish to be taught a brand new programming language, we form of all know what are the paths to that. One factor I believe you already talked about was one thing referred to as DevRelCon, like a convention particularly? Is {that a} good place to get began or do you’ve got books, blogs, movies to discover this path?

Joe Nash 00:49:55 So DevRelCon is a developer operations convention organized by a consultancy referred to as Hoopy. It’s Matthew Ravel. It’s fantastic. It’s a convention for DevRel practitioners. I’d not essentially advocate shelling out and attending it in case you are not but in DevRel, however for those who’re curious about DevRel. However what I’d advocate doing goes over to the YouTube channel, going to developerrelations.com and trying out the big backlog of movies. All of the talks have been recorded. You will discover all of them, there have been the convention has been operating a very long time now and it’s for DevRel practitioners, so there’s plenty of stuff in-depth there that’s in all probability not tremendous helpful for those who’re simply beginning out. However there have been additions of the convention centered on early-in-career developer relations people and moving into business. So that you’ll undoubtedly discover these talks.

Joe Nash 00:50:37 I believe one other actually nice useful resource is Mary Thengvall’s publication. Mary Thengvall has an exquisite publication that additionally usually contains job posts. Finally, I believe one of the best factor you are able to do although is to go and select a developer product you want, select an API you want, select a device you want, and hit the touchdown web page and faux you’ve by no means seen it earlier than. And put your self within the mindset of a developer who’s assessing this device to see if they need to use it at work, and undergo that journey and see what you assume, see how fast it takes you to make your first API request, see what friction you hit, see what docs you assume aren’t fairly clear sufficient. And having executed that course of, distill these ideas, write one thing down after which mirror and say, hey, did I take pleasure in doing that? I may be a developer relations particular person. That will be what I’d advocate.

Felienne 00:51:25 That’s a good way to get began. And naturally, a few of the expertise that we talked about additionally, as I already mentioned, have been coated in different episodes. So technical writing or turning into a public speaker, for those who would wish to work on a few of these subskills, a few of our older episodes may additionally assist and different sources to work particularly on these completely different expertise.

Joe Nash 00:51:44 One factor I’d warning on that just a little — properly, sorry, I’d say warning — it’s, I believe moving into developer relations generally can fall into the identical entice as moving into software program engineering. A number of folks say, oh go contribute to a great deal of open supply. That’s a great way to get into software program engineering, proper? And I believe the identical can sort of occur to DevRel the place it’s very simple to say ‘go give a load of talks,’ however they take plenty of time and work, and never everybody can afford to try this as a part of their profession change. There are undoubtedly, there will likely be job listings on the market that say, hey, we wish you to have this many Twitter followers and have executed this many talks. However there are job roles on the market for early-in-career DevRel folks the place they are going to simply take a look at the expertise you’ve got as a software program engineer and gained’t have required you to do the job of a DevRel earlier than you’re a DevRel, proper? So, for those who see job postings that require you to do a load of labor you don’t have time to do within the profession swap, don’t be discouraged. Jobs do exist for early, early-career DevRel jobs do exist.

Felienne 00:52:42 Ah, nice. Effectively, it is a excellent recommendation. I believe that’s a lot of the issues I needed to speak about. Do you assume there’s something we missed? Any angle about this a part of the job that you just nonetheless wish to speak about?

Joe Nash 00:52:53 I don’t assume so. I believe your questions are very far. Thanks.

Felienne 00:52:56 Yeah. Incredible. Thanks a lot. So, then what about you? Suppose the viewers needs to observe you? What are one of the best locations to remain updated with the work that you’re doing?

Joe Nash 00:53:05 Positive. So, I’m @jna_sh on Twitter, and also you’ll in all probability discover me for those who simply search Joe Nash.

Felienne 00:53:11 We are going to add it to the present notes as properly.

Joe Nash 00:53:13 Excellent. If you’re curious about developer schooling, that’s the place I spend plenty of my time these days. I run a meetup referred to as Papers We Love Training, which is a paper studying group for laptop science schooling papers, and I work on an academic recreation referred to as TwillioQuest, so I like to recommend checking these out as properly.

Felienne 00:53:29 Yeah, so we’ll undoubtedly add all these hyperlinks to the present notes so folks can test them out. Thanks for being on the present at present.

Joe Nash 00:53:35 Thanks a lot for having me.

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